Jerry-
Well, good luck. If it were me, I would stick a date in the scores table - it can't hurt. You can always set the Default Value to Date() so the user doesn't have to fill it in.
John Viescas, Author
Microsoft Access 2010 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2007 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2003 Inside Out
Building Microsoft Access Applications
SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
(Paris, France)
On Dec 10, 2014, at 7:51 PM, Jerry Mathers jerrymathersasthebeav@yahoo.com [MS_Access_Professionals] <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>If a student scores low early in a quarter, do they get remedial action and then test again?
Yes, but the next test comes during the next "season." If a student does poorly in the Fall they receive remediation and are tested again in the "winter". But, regardless of any need for remediation the students are all tested again each time not just those it didn't do very well. We just pay less attention to those with scores meeting the requirements. In the end, all scores will need to be reported. It is kind of a dual purpose tool--finding out which students need help and ultimately reporting the scores for all students.
I never had a formal sit-down with them. I was given a two sided piece of paper that represented the old way of doing it and a very brief conversation where I was asked if I could turn the paper into something electronic the teachers could use instead. The reason being there was going to be a need to report the data to the state that had to be done electronically and there was also the hope that electronic entry vs. paper/pencil would be faster.
I asked a number of the questions and some of the answers were useful. However, some of the answers were simply, "I don't know the answer to that question. We are being asked to report this data to the state, but we don't know exactly how we're going to be required to do so. We're hoping if the data is already in some kind of electronic form we can make it fit the reporting requirements." When I kept getting that as the answer I stopped asking questions.
Yes, it drives us all crazy to know we have requirements that will need to be met at some time in the future, yet we don't know the specifics of the requirements because no one seems to have been told. We blindly do what we can and either brute force the data into the reporting instrument, or a couple of people spend lots of very rushed last-minute time with paper and pencil figuring out the numbers to be reported.
Oddly, even an inefficient Access database makes things easier for them because if nothing else happens I'm usually able to take the data and more quickly get it into a format that can be uploaded, once we know what they are looking for, saving lots of women hours (I do work in an elementary school). Sometimes I can get it for them directly out of Access. Sometimes I'm forced to move the data into Excel to get it setup.
On Monday, December 8, 2014 2:47 PM, "John Viescas JohnV@msn.com [MS_Access_Professionals]" <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Jerry-
"I'm pretty sure" are famous last words. If a student scores low early in a quarter, do they get remedial action and then test again? I would bet they do.
The toughest problem in designing any data base is to understand the "business" model. It's especially important to know the exceptions to any rule. When I build a database for a client, I start with an extensive interview about the "job" process, all the bits of information the user wants to collect, and, most importantly, what the user needs to do with the data from an analysis standpoint. Until you get that information, anything you build will be flawed. Have you had a chance to sit down with teachers and administrators to interview them about their needs and what they expect? If not, you need to do that.
John Viescas, Author
Microsoft Access 2010 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2007 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2003 Inside Out
Building Microsoft Access Applications
SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
(Paris, France)
On Dec 8, 2014, at 7:41 PM, Jerry Mathers jerrymathersasthebeav@yahoo.com [MS_Access_Professionals] <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Nope, only one score per quarter. I'm pretty sure what they want to see is "progress" on any particular item over the course of the school year. Anywhere there is an individually low score will produce some remediation for that student, and in the end we can report to the state that we are, in fact, making progress (which is sort of the new buzzword for No Child Left Behind).
Part of the problem was I was asked to create this, but don't really know enough about what will become of the data collected and how it will be used. I know that if I followed a real model for doing all of the necessary processing/questioning prior to creating the tool I would have a better understanding than I currently do. It seems like what they want is a very simple way to collect the data, with the operative word being simple--and no longer pencil/paper so they can more quickly see what they need to do along with having the advantage of making it easier to report progress to the state (which we are required to do). My part in this is to create it for them, and I'm using this as an opportunity to try to get out of my flat world.
On Friday, December 5, 2014 11:43 AM, "John Viescas JohnV@msn.com [MS_Access_Professionals]" <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Jerry-
So, there's only one score recorded per quarter? I would think a score might be entered as often as every six weeks. For that you need something more precise - a Date/Time field would do it.
John Viescas, Author
Microsoft Access 2010 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2007 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2003 Inside Out
Building Microsoft Access Applications
SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
(Paris, France)
On Dec 5, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Jerry Mathers jerrymathersasthebeav@yahoo.com [MS_Access_Professionals] <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>Do you also want to track the "grades" over time? (For example, to track the student's progress during the year.) If so, then your Grading table needs to include a date as part of the Primary Key.
I will need to track their progress during the year. I was hoping the Time_of_Year table could handle this. The choices, in a drop-down, would be Fall, Winter, Spring. If I included the StudentID in that table would that get me the equivalent of a score's date? I don't need an exact date, just which of the three progress windows a particular score belongs in.
On Thursday, December 4, 2014 4:17 AM, "John Viescas JohnV@msn.com [MS_Access_Professionals]" <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Jerry-
Do you also want to track the "grades" over time? (For example, to track the student's progress during the year.) If so, then your Grading table needs to include a date as part of the Primary Key.
John Viescas, Author
Microsoft Access 2010 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2007 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2003 Inside Out
Building Microsoft Access Applications
SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
(Paris, France)
On Dec 4, 2014, at 12:23 AM, Jerry Mathers jerrymathersasthebeav@yahoo.com [MS_Access_Professionals] <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>What about next year?
I'll admit that I'm not sure if this is a one year thing or the data will follow the student as they move to the next grade. I'm inclined to think that this will be for one year because there's a good possibility that each grade scores for different items (I've only seen the rubric for one other grade--3rd, which was similar, but not exactly the same). That's why I put the teacher in with the student.
>It sounds like you're trying to track ratings for performance in an English or Composing class. Are there other classes or subjects that might need to be tracked later?
This particular tool is based on a paper/pencil rubric for 1st grade students. This deals with how they are progressing with their writing abilities. The goal was to get away from the mess of paper/pencil tracking and the lack of ability to really analyze how things are going if it isn't in an electronic form, meaning a quick way to determine which students need extra help and in what specific areas or writing.
On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 9:46 AM, "John Viescas JohnV@msn.com [MS_Access_Professionals]" <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Jerry-
Close, but no cigar.
Why is Teacher in the Students table? Will the student have the same teacher all the time? What about next year?
It sounds like you're trying to track ratings for performance in an English or Composing class. Are there other classes or subjects that might need to be tracked later?
I would think you need a ScoringCategories table - initially to contain two rows, one each from Composing and Mechanics.
Then you also need a CategoryItems table with eight rows - four for Composing and four for Mechanics (the ID from the ScoringCategories table is a foreign key here).
Finally, you need a Grading table to contain StudentID, ScoringCategoryID, CategoryItemID, and Score.
Capiche?
John Viescas, Author
Microsoft Access 2010 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2007 Inside Out
Microsoft Access 2003 Inside Out
Building Microsoft Access Applications
SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
(Paris, France)
On Dec 3, 2014, at 3:10 PM, Jerry Mathers jerrymathersasthebeav@yahoo.com [MS_Access_Professionals] <MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
If you read my last question about too many Queries you'll know that I'm in a flat file rut and I'm hoping you can help me break through to the relational world. I've been asked to create a tool that will collect student data related to their writing abilities. I broke out good old Access to create this tool and when I started I realized I was, once again, just creating a "spreadsheet" in Access. So, maybe this is a good time to break free and build a better design and use this as my first attempt at getting better at doing it more efficiently. It is a fairly simple tool that also makes this a good one with which I can start my new life.
Here are the parameters/components I've been asked to include:
-Basic student information (Name, Grade, Student ID, Teacher).
-Two main categories for the various individual components to be tracked (Composing, Mechanics).
-Under the Composing category there are specific items to be tracked (Participation, Planning, Central Idea, Revising). Each item is scored as a 1, 2, 3 or 4.
-Under the Mechanics category there are specific items to be tracked (Letter Formation, Format, Punctuation, Capitalization). Each item is scored as a 1, 2, 3 or 4.
-There will be three times during the year when each of the specific items will be recorded (Fall, Winter, Spring).
I figure there should be:
I figure there should be:
-Four tables (Student_Info, Composing, Mechanics, Time_of_Year)
-The fields for each table will be what I listed above in each of the bulleted items (with name being split into First and Last).
-The primary key for the Student Info table will be StudentID.
-A foreign key in the other tables will be StudentID and the primary keys will be an auto number field.
-The relationships will be from the Student_Info table to each of the other three tables via the StudentID field.
So, in the end my question is, is this a normalized relational structure? Am I beginning to finally "get it"? (I have spent time over the last number of days reading and trying to understand as much as I could about the subject, including the videos and documents from Ms. Crystal.)
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Posted by: John Viescas <johnv@msn.com>
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